{"id":1267,"date":"2017-04-04T21:38:46","date_gmt":"2017-04-04T14:38:46","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/christweten.com\/?p=1267"},"modified":"2020-02-10T21:39:17","modified_gmt":"2020-02-10T14:39:17","slug":"smash-bros-is-not-a-fighting-game","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/christweten.com\/smash-bros-is-not-a-fighting-game\/","title":{"rendered":"&#8220;Smash Bros is not a fighting game,&#8221; say top Japanese gaming figureheads."},"content":{"rendered":"\n<h2>Similar, but not quite a fighting game.<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>When someone says Smash Bros is not a fighting game, they often mean it doesn\u2019t belong with traditional fighters or that the Smash community doesn\u2019t belong in the fighting game community (FGC). Depending on who you talk to, opinions on these two points can vary quite a bit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, there are some very important people on our side of the argument whose views should not be taken lightly. <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Sora_Sakurai\">Masahiro Sakurai<\/a>, creator of the Smash Bros franchise and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Harada_TEKKEN\">Based Katsuhiro Harada<\/a>, series director of the Tekken franchise both have said that Smash Bros is not a fighting game.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For those not in the loop, Harada\u2019s stance on this is especially interesting because Sakurai hired him (and his team) to develop Smash Bros Wii U &amp; 3DS (Smash 4). Harada is a living legend in the FGC, known for not taking shit from anyone and standing up for his ideals. There have been numerous times where both of these figureheads in the Japanese gaming industry have referred to Smash as anything but a fighting game. Sakurai has at one point even claimed it to be a sports game, if that makes any sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote\"><p>\u201cFundamentally, my goal with Smash has been to create an \u201cenjoyable party game\u201d. If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games.\u201d<\/p><cite> Sakurai, Famitsu Column 480 (2015) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><em>This article was originally published on the now defunct, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/liai\">Living In Asia Ironically<\/a> website.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3>What is a fighting game?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Fighterpedia did a great, although very flawed analysis of the \u201cIs Smash Bros a fighting game?\u201d debate, but they did bring up some good points. What makes a game belong to the fighting game genre&nbsp;<em>exactly<\/em>? The short answer is that there isn\u2019t a definition of a fighting game that works absolutely. The long answer is that <a href=\"http:\/\/christweten.com\/gamer-marketing\/\">game mechanics in fighting games<\/a> toy around with staples of the genre and that\u2019s what makes them interesting in the first place. For every definition someone could possibly give for a fighting game, there are plenty of games that are clearly in the genre that become excluded.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p align=\"center\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/GM3qwp6g9nk\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen=\"\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As Sakurai himself put it:&nbsp;<em>\u201cI think the idea of the fighting game genre can be somewhat limiting. People have defined in their own minds what constitutes a fighting game, and that can be such a specific set of characteristics that when other people are viewing a game from the outside and they learn it\u2019s a fighting game, they may predetermine it\u2019s not for them simply because of what they expect from it as a fighting game.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>When planning the development of a new game, I always take a lot of care to discuss the concept and try to define it as best I can.&nbsp;<strong>For example, I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game.<\/strong>&nbsp;You\u2019ll notice that\u2019s a lot longer than saying it\u2019s a fighting game, because \u2018fighting game\u2019 is a completely different label. You can talk about a fighting game or an action game or a racing game, but as soon as you define your game specifically in those terms, you start limiting your creative range because you\u2019re thinking of the limitations of that genre. Perhaps the best thing we can do now is start with a concept rather than a genre. If we can do that, perhaps we can grow the whole idea a little bit.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What\u2019s hazy about Sakurai\u2019s stance is if he thinks Smash Bros as an esport plays like a fighting game. It does. We\u2019re not going to deny that. It\u2019s a very technical, execution-heavy game where the best of the best dominate everyone else. It does great as an esport with its broad appeal to casual viewers and players. Unfortunately, this means that the Smash community has very little people who are actually training to take on pro players, resulting in a very stagnant meta with very similar top 8 placements at major tournaments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Sometimes Sakurai alludes to Smash as being a fighting game, but it\u2019s clear that he doesn\u2019t support its competitive scene. The game isn\u2019t made for them, it\u2019s made for the masses. In Famitsu Column 502 (2016), he states this explicitly:&nbsp;<em>\u201cI want to avoid a design where stronger players utterly dominate weaker ones. We should make it so that new players can have fun as well. I\u2019ve touched upon this idea in previous columns. If you want to enjoy the strategy or competitiveness in playing against another person, then maybe normal fighting games are more suited for you. Virtua Fighter 2 had flashy, showy attacks, but it doesn\u2019t appear at overseas tournaments, I wonder if that\u2019s because of a cultural difference?\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"388\" height=\"718\" src=\"http:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/sakurai-smash-bros-not-a-fighting-game.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1268\" srcset=\"https:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/sakurai-smash-bros-not-a-fighting-game.png 388w, https:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/sakurai-smash-bros-not-a-fighting-game-162x300.png 162w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 388px) 100vw, 388px\" \/><figcaption> Sakurai straight up says Smash Bros is not a fighting game in an interview for Nintendo Power. As official as it gets! <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>Harada has a stance on Smash Bros rivaled only by&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/Kappa\/\">r\/Kappa<\/a>: Smash Bros is a party game. He doesn\u2019t consider it to be a deep, technical game or a fighting game to begin with.&nbsp;In 2015, I tweeted an excerpt of an article where Harada talks about his fighting game crossover wet dream. It would be meant for hardcore gamers only,&nbsp;<em>\u201cThis wouldn\u2019t be a party game like Smash Bros\u201d.&nbsp;<\/em>He actually replied and it opened up an odd discussion between him and Alliance\u2019s&nbsp;Armada.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p align=\"center\"><blockquote class=\"twitter-tweet\"><p lang=\"en\" dir=\"ltr\">It&#39;s great party game but also great Fighting Game for More than 2 players.<br>RT<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ctwtn?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">@ctwtn<\/a> Based Harada <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/hashtag\/SmashBros?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">#SmashBros<\/a> is a party game <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/hashtag\/EVO2015?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">#EVO2015<\/a><\/p>&mdash; Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Harada_TEKKEN\/status\/558105132819570692?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw\">January 22, 2015<\/a><\/blockquote> <script async src=\"https:\/\/platform.twitter.com\/widgets.js\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2>Why Smash Bros Isn&#8217;t a Fighting Game<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3>Items and Stage Hazards<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Classic staples of the Smash Bros franchise that add randomness to gameplay. Fighting games typically have minimized the amount of RNG, while Smash\u2019s default settings are a blatant defiance to this trend. In tournament settings, items are disabled and stages with hazards are banned from play (along with other stages that are favorable in certain matchups), so the amount of RNG is also minimized. The distinction here is that this is done through agreed upon fan-made rules rather than an in-game default option. If you get 2 scrubs to play Guilty Gear, it will always play like a fighting game even if they\u2019re fucking around or don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing because\u2026well, it\u2019s a fucking fighting game. You can\u2019t say the same about Smash Bros. You need to use an extremely specific set of rules before it even begins to play like a fighter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter\"><img src=\"http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20180723224545im_\/https:\/\/i2.wp.com\/livinginasiaironically.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/04\/platinum.jpg?resize=480%2C272\" alt=\"RNG in fighting games\" class=\"wp-image-324\"\/><figcaption>Fighting Platinum means taking risks based on RNG.<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>While it\u2019s true that RNG existed in very old fighting games like Street Fighter 2, this has been met with negative criticism by many critics and fans. A&nbsp;great example of RNG existing in what is quite clearly a fighting game is&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/blazblue.wikia.com\/wiki\/Platinum_the_Trinity\/Move_List\">Platinum the Trinity<\/a>\u2018s Drive move in BlazBlue, Magical Symphony, which randomly spawns one of her items. Peach\u2019s Vegetable move in the Smash series parallels operates on the same concept. However, Platinum\u2019s items are exclusively for her to use and have been re-balanced over time. When playing against Peach, there\u2019s a low chance she can use items that are banned from tournament play. Peach\u2019s Vegetable has been&nbsp;<em>\u201cbalanced\u201d<\/em>&nbsp;by making the odds of pulling a banned item quite low, but this still means there\u2019s a chance she can turn a match around with nothing but good RNG. Welp.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img loading=\"lazy\" width=\"342\" height=\"599\" src=\"http:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/Smash-Bros-Melee-Peach-RNG.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1269\" srcset=\"https:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/Smash-Bros-Melee-Peach-RNG.png 342w, https:\/\/christweten.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/02\/Smash-Bros-Melee-Peach-RNG-171x300.png 171w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 342px) 100vw, 342px\" \/><figcaption>Potentially match-deciding RNG has no place in the FGC, get that shit out my face<\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<h3>&#8220;Combos&#8221; and True Combos<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Ah, combos. One of the many feel-good moments of playing a fighting game. Everyone is familiar with how satisfying it is to hit up training mode practicing the same combo for hours until you\u2019re tournament ready. Or maybe you\u2019re an online warrior and you just go at it until you\u2019re comfortable enough to try it out in a ranked match. When a layman thinks of fighting games, this is often the first thing to come to mind. It\u2019s not exclusive to fighting games though; combos can be found in most genres of games.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In 2D fighters, a combo is defined as \u201ca string of attacks that cannot be blocked if the first hit connects\u201d. Basically, guaranteed damage if your first attack hits. This is a loose definition though, so let\u2019s get more specific and more technical. Let\u2019s get some&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wiktionary.org\/wiki\/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games\">basic fighting game terminology<\/a>&nbsp;out of the way so you can understand what a combo actually is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul><li>Hit Stun: This refers to the amount of time of frames it takes you to recover after being hit by a certain attack.<\/li><li>Frame Advantage: A move which allows the player to recover before his opponent leaves either Hit Stun on hit or block stun on block is considered to have frame advantage in those areas.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p>There are 3 phases to an attack: Startup Frames, Active Frames and Recovery Frames. Fairly straight forward. If an attack hits, you can combo into another if the 1st attack\u2019s Recovery Frames + the 2nd attack\u2019s Startup Frames are smaller than the total Hit Stun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In Smash Bros, the term&nbsp;<em>combo<\/em>&nbsp;is&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ssbwiki.com\/Combo\">used so loosely<\/a>&nbsp;that they have another term,&nbsp;<strong>True<\/strong>&nbsp;Combo specifically for what the FGC would consider just a combo. What this means is that most \u201ccombos\u201d you see in Smash aren\u2019t actually combos at all and can be escaped even if the first attack hits. There are very few True Combos in Smash and they are typically off of throws, only True Combos at low %s or are only 2-3 hits long.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3>Execution: HoW fAsT iS MeLeE??<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Smash Bros has a lot of unique movement options and high APM (Actions Per Minute). Many of the common movement options aren\u2019t particularly new, though. Wavedashing has been around since the early 90s for example. Think wavedashing is difficult? Nah. There are fighting games you\u2019ve probably never even played&nbsp;that gain more in their meta from similar movement options than Melee. Being execution heavy doesn\u2019t necessarily mean a game is deep, it just means it has a higher barrier of entry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Shrek Super Slam is a great example of depth in movement options. Crumpet dashing adds layers to the decision making process in ways that Melee\u2019s wavedashing can\u2019t match. I\u2019ll let you be the judge, check it out. Red Riding Hood has strategies that come from her mobility and crumpet dashing plays a huge role in this. She\u2019s actually banned from tournaments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p align=\"center\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ChEj9m1kwsw\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen=\"\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For a more serious example, look at how difficult plink dashing is in Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3. Half of EVO 2015\u2019s top 8 players had issues consistently plink dashing, despite being a crucial part of high level movement. I can\u2019t think of a single&nbsp;Advanced Technique in Smash that\u2019s on par with this. For further depth, plink dashes can be option selected with a throw as well, beefing up the total # of inputs. fchamp and Chris Schmidt did a great&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/9v32pgLB_4k\">plink dashing tutorial<\/a>, making it look way easier than it really is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When thinking about execution in Smash Bros, one video always comes to mind: How fast is Melee? In this video, someone displays inputs lined up with a Fox player\u2019s strings (not a combo) showing off the high APM of Smash. Is this relevant in a discussion of genre? Not really. Many games are very technical, but don\u2019t fall into the fighting genre. What I find interesting about execution in Smash is that it still requires quite a bit of focus and thinking when playing defense. You can\u2019t really say that about traditional fighting games, but that comes with game design. It isn\u2019t necessarily a bad thing. Frantically trying to block setups in Marvel vs Capcom is a frightening, exciting experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p align=\"center\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/vXgpGBbh5r8\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen=\"\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p align=\"center\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/VFKxdC7LCLc\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen=\"\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>How fast is Marvel tho? These aren\u2019t even Doom\u2019s fancy combos, just his standard ROM. It&#8217;s not like UMvC3&#8217;s execution is notoriously difficult or anything either, it&#8217;s just a good middle of the road example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re a glutton for punishment, try your hand at King of Fighters XIII trials. Or lose your mind practicing CvS2 roll cancels. Blanka&#8217;s roll cancelled electricity is more difficult than any technique in Smash Bros, hands down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3>Community<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Even if one side had completely proven their argument true, saying Smash Bros is not a fighting game is more a statement that Smash Bros does not belong in the FGC. After the famous&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=jX9hbbA-WP4\">Smash documentary<\/a>, Melee had its revival and the community literally bought its way into EVO. MrWizard can\u2019t turn down that McRib money, don\u2019t be too shocked. FGC tournament organizers are more than happy to pander to the Smash community because it brings more publicity for them and more revenue. It\u2019s just smart business. But does the FGC need Smash Bros (and vice versa)? Absolutely not. The Smash community has had its own grassroots movement and their independent tournaments get in just as much, if not more, viewers and revenue than a regular FGC event.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, there\u2019s an odd sense of entitlement from the Smash community.&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.reddit.com\/r\/Kappa\/comments\/4pwi4d\/melee_fans_chanting_and_booing_during_gg_finals\/\">They\u2019ve booed other games during top 8<\/a>&nbsp;because of schedule delays. They\u2019ve&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20180723224545\/https:\/\/twitter.com\/Kagethewarrior\/status\/770280137766100993\">demanded VIP rooms<\/a>&nbsp;at events so pro players don\u2019t get&nbsp;<em>bothered<\/em>&nbsp;by their adoring fans. They\u2019ve demanded special treatment from tournament organizers. If there\u2019s one thing I really respect about the FGC, it\u2019s that they don\u2019t really take shit from anyone. The community self-polices itself fairly efficiently, calling out just about anyone on their bullshit \u2013 even if they\u2019re a valued, contributing member of the community. Meritocracy at its finest. Players who perform well and have a great attitude are praised, while&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/kanebluerivercl\">people that beg for money<\/a>,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/gllty\">call others by slurs on stream<\/a>&nbsp;or&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/smashboards.com\/\">act like babies<\/a>&nbsp;are shunned. Unfortunately, the Smash community\u2019s top players are very entitled and often lash out at even the smallest of complaints. There\u2019s no denying that the FGC figureheads have more finesse overall.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Regardless of where your opinion lies in this absolutely pointless debate, just remember that at the end of the day: It doesn&#8217;t fucking matter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Call it a fighting game. Claim it isn&#8217;t one. Either way, it&#8217;s a competitive game that sells like hot cakes. Whether you choose to watch the pros duke it out is up to you.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Similar, but not quite a fighting game. When someone says Smash Bros is not a fighting game, they often mean it doesn\u2019t belong with traditional fighters or that the Smash community doesn\u2019t belong in the fighting game community (FGC). Depending on who you talk to, opinions on these two points can vary quite a bit. &#8230; <a title=\"&#8220;Smash Bros is not a fighting game,&#8221; say top Japanese gaming figureheads.\" class=\"read-more\" href=\"https:\/\/christweten.com\/smash-bros-is-not-a-fighting-game\/\" aria-label=\"More on &#8220;Smash Bros is not a fighting game,&#8221; say top Japanese gaming figureheads.\">Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":1270,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[67,66],"tags":[86,87],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v19.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>&quot;Smash Bros is not a fighting game,&quot; say top Japanese game developers.<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"When someone says Smash Bros is not a fighting game, they often mean it doesn\u2019t belong with traditional fighters. 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